An interesting discussion.
I have read all the posts but have nothing worth contributing.
THE GLADIATOR
JoinedPosts by THE GLADIATOR
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On becoming atheist - the tug of war
by Nickolas inperhaps, if you are a theist, you might not want to read this.
if you are nevertheless curious about how an atheist thinks, then please read on.. i don't think there are any active members of this board who have been atheists all their lives (are there?).
i think virtually all of us transitioned into non-belief from a religious beginning.
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Another Couple/Few Sincere Questions, for all, if I may:
by AGuest inmay you all have peace!
in light of some discussions on the board lately, i would like to ask... and hope you can be sincere in your response:.
which concerns you more: truth... or consensus?is truth, in your opinion, only that which is known/has been proven (however you deem "proof") thus far?can something be true, albeit not yet proven?does truth "change"?please know that i am not looking for right or wrong answers/responses.
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THE GLADIATOR
Truth is a very difficult thing to nail down. It can be a slippery customer. T here is eternal truth and truth of the moment. If I say it’s midnight , I have to clarify which time zone I am referring to. If it really is midnight in that zone, I have spoken the truth. A moment later it’s no longer midnight . The claim was true at the time, so I made a true statement. If I believe it to be midnight but my watch is slow, I have been tricked into making a false claim. So truth will always depend on accurate information.
That’s a very simple example. More complicated claims can be impossible to prove. Therefore we can only unanimously accept something as true when it has been proven. It has been said that everyone has their own truth. This is true but refers to subjective truth.
Being human we still have a limited view of the world and universe. Most of the mysteries of the universe are beyond our ability to prove, so for the present they remain mysteries. As humans we have very poor tools for establishing absolute truth in abstract things so sometimes 'accepted truth' is arrived at by consensus, as in a court case.
That's my take on truth but it won't be entirely accurate because the subject is much bigger than me.
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For those who do not believe in the Bible: Why don't you?
by Chemical Emotions ini don't believe in the bible either, but i'm just curious as to why others don't.
ridiculous misogyny and mass murder by a petty little god are two reasons for me.
(ilovehigh-lighting) .
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THE GLADIATOR
"For those who do not believe in the Bible: Why don't you?"
For the same reason I don’t believe in the Koran
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Christians used to be sure of what they believed...
by THE GLADIATOR inrecent events on this board have got me thinking, which is no small feat.
christians are arguing more with each other than with atheists.. christians used to be sure of what they believed solid in their faith and certain of its foundation cornerstone and what he was called.
only non-believers cast doubt and were crushed under a mountain of bible passages that were heaped upon them.
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THE GLADIATOR
And thank you to you dear AGuest.
Salute!
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A quote to brighten up your Monday!
by SweetBabyCheezits in"once upon a time, in some out of the way corner of that universe which is dispersed into numberless twinkling solar systems, there was a star upon which clever beasts invented knowing.
that was the most arrogant and mendacious minute of "world history," but nevertheless, it was only a minute.
after nature had drawn a few breaths, the star cooled and congealed, and the clever beasts had to die.. one might invent such a fable, and yet he still would not have adequately illustrated how miserable, how shadowy and transient, how aimless and arbitrary the human intellect looks within nature.
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THE GLADIATOR
Going back to the opening post; sad as it seems the situation for humans does seem less than ideal.
I sometimes listen to the late philosopher & spiritual entertainer Alan Watts on CD. One of his lectures is called ‘The level of magnification.’
Everything we look at appears different the closer or further we get from it. If we look at the earth from 5,000,000 miles away and a time span
of say 900,000,000 years, our whole perspective of humanity would change…ect.
It's humbling to realize that in the grand scheme of things I am just a time-bound prick!
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Christians used to be sure of what they believed...
by THE GLADIATOR inrecent events on this board have got me thinking, which is no small feat.
christians are arguing more with each other than with atheists.. christians used to be sure of what they believed solid in their faith and certain of its foundation cornerstone and what he was called.
only non-believers cast doubt and were crushed under a mountain of bible passages that were heaped upon them.
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THE GLADIATOR
Greetings! I have just returned from going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it. Things here seemed to have calmed down. Thanks you all for your comments.
Stillthinking. NewChapter. AGuest. Twitch. OnTheWayOut. Tammy(tec)Vandahoven7. mosch. Band on the run. Shepherd. Joey Jo-Jo. SweetBabyCheezits. MrFalcon. OUTLAW. Cantleave. Deist. EntirelyPossible. BrokenPromises. PSacramento. Wobble. the-luminator81.
I have read your responses carefully and found them helpful and well thought out. I know it’s encouraging to get a reply to every post you make but it’s not always possible or desirable for me to respond to every post. This thread addresses a sensitive subject and sometimes it is best to see which direction the subject takes without unnecessary guidance from me.
There is subjective reality and objective reality. The person, who believes that their experience is real and involves external influence, will usually insist that their experience, although not provable is objective. Alas, improvable experiences remain subjective until they are proven. I don’t make these rules; it’s just the way it is, how our language works.
Through debate we seek to examine beliefs and claims and see if they can become objective to the world at large. It’s understandable that those with strong convictions desire to eternalise and share their beliefs. If doing so causes them to be validated they are strengthened. If attempts to gain acceptance of these views fails, then defensive action is often taken to protect those views.
After all, we protect what we value. Whenever we share something we value, we take the risk is that it may be derided. Those that deride on either side of the debate are simply seeking to keep their own balance and protect their way of making sense of their life and finding a path thorough this difficult world.
Forgive me if I sound as though I am lecturing as I realize that you i ntelligent people already know all this.
Peace and may your gods go with you
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Christians used to be sure of what they believed...
by THE GLADIATOR inrecent events on this board have got me thinking, which is no small feat.
christians are arguing more with each other than with atheists.. christians used to be sure of what they believed solid in their faith and certain of its foundation cornerstone and what he was called.
only non-believers cast doubt and were crushed under a mountain of bible passages that were heaped upon them.
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THE GLADIATOR
It's Gladiator's thread. Carry on with him and forget everything I said.
Thanks OnTheWayOut but this is everybody's thread and people should express how they feel. We all see the theist non-theist debate from our own perspective.
Many believers have become atheists and many atheists have become believers. We are all subject to change and robust debate is essential to the process.
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Christians used to be sure of what they believed...
by THE GLADIATOR inrecent events on this board have got me thinking, which is no small feat.
christians are arguing more with each other than with atheists.. christians used to be sure of what they believed solid in their faith and certain of its foundation cornerstone and what he was called.
only non-believers cast doubt and were crushed under a mountain of bible passages that were heaped upon them.
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THE GLADIATOR
I have just returned from an annual chilli festival in West Dean Sussex UK. Tasted some mighty hot chillies but was not prepared for the heat on this thread.
With regard to my ‘jealousy’ towards Shelby hearing from Jesus, I believe I have adequately explained myself. Nevertheless I would like to share a moment from my past.
When I was a boy we had very little in the way of material things. My brothers were always bored with nothing to play with. I was never bored. Fortunately I had a vivid imagination. I could conjure up anything I wanted in my imagination. I had imaginary conversations with people. I heard voices and made friends with people who existed only in my mind. I could make up jokes, tell them to myself and laugh out loud when I got to the punch line.
I even had a horse that I could gallop down the road to the local store on. The lady store owner always asked how the horse was and gave me free nuts to feed it. I also had a panda that was so real he had a small chair of his own to sit on. Occasionally a place was set at the table for the panda.
One day I announced that the panda had gone. My father asked where? I told him that didn’t need him any more. Soon after, the horse went too. Now I have to live in the real world. I envy people who are still capable of such illusion.
Peace
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Christians used to be sure of what they believed...
by THE GLADIATOR inrecent events on this board have got me thinking, which is no small feat.
christians are arguing more with each other than with atheists.. christians used to be sure of what they believed solid in their faith and certain of its foundation cornerstone and what he was called.
only non-believers cast doubt and were crushed under a mountain of bible passages that were heaped upon them.
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THE GLADIATOR
I did not look for any deceit in what you posted, at all but gave you the benefit of the doubt (why wouldn't I?). I am saddened to learn that my candor may have been wasted (or so you suggest) because you were never serious to begin with (or you now wish me to believe).
I have just read your post Shelby and I cannot understand what your point is. I have been totaly honest with you and meant every word I said.
I cannot be jealous that Jesus talks to you and not me if I don't belive he exists. What I can be, is jealous of is your illusion which I am unable to share. Illusion offers comfort and respite from reality. It is a luxury I don't enjoy. Of course you belive that I along with many non theists and Christians are deluded. This is of course why we debate these positions on the forum.
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Christians used to be sure of what they believed...
by THE GLADIATOR inrecent events on this board have got me thinking, which is no small feat.
christians are arguing more with each other than with atheists.. christians used to be sure of what they believed solid in their faith and certain of its foundation cornerstone and what he was called.
only non-believers cast doubt and were crushed under a mountain of bible passages that were heaped upon them.
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THE GLADIATOR
Well, as always Shelby, your response is comprehensive, sincere and perceptive. I have just used the word sincere in my last post because Christians do seem to be entirely sincere.
When I say that ‘I would like Christ to speak to me, even though I don't believe he exists; that I would still like to believe that I can hear him speaking to me. ’
What I am saying is that I would like to be able to enjoy having such an amazing illusion in my life. My disposition prevents me from enjoying this luxury. It’s not a choice. If I could keep illusion alive I would still be a Jehovah's Witness.
At the same time, I could be utterly deluded and missing out on the reality of Jesus and his existence. I think this unlikely but to you it is a reality and I wish you well in your spiritual journey. I appreciate the time you take to dissect my often facetious comments and believing that I may be worth saving.